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bruno



Inscrit le: 11 Mar 2007
Messages: 16

MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 14, 2007 3:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Ce n'est pas je crois un publi reportage au sens propre du terme. Qu'mporte! Simplement, ce type de propos donnent une image détestable de la danse classique. Peut-être ont-ils été déformés, je l'ignore mais parler d'histoire d'amitié entre Chaumet et Aurélie Dupont, c'est preque indécent: non pas en soi mais d'en faire étalage. Moi aussi je réve d'émeraudes, de rubis, de diamants! Et vous?...


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haydn
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Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2003
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 14, 2007 3:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Il s'agit clairement d'un publi-reportage. Et les propos ont été rapportés tels que. Simplement j'èspérais que nous en resterions à un ton léger et humoristique. Pour les Joyaux, il vous faudra suivre la troupe en Australie, ou vous passer le DVD...


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thebride



Inscrit le: 14 Mar 2007
Messages: 21
Localisation: France

MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 14, 2007 4:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Je pense tout simplement que cet article est à prendre avec légèreté et non au sérieux.
Et pour tout dire, cet article est destiné à faire resortir l'image glamour de la danseuse bien plus que ses opinions.
Cela dit je vous rejoint sur le fait qu'il serait très interessant que Mlle Dupont donne sa perception de son métier et parle un peu plus de danse, mais peut être faudrait-il que les médias et journalistes s'en préoccupent.


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Jonquille



Inscrit le: 22 Avr 2005
Messages: 1882

MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 14, 2007 4:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Beaucoup de bruit pour rien...


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haydn
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 14, 2007 4:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Sur cette citation shakespearienne, clôturons donc le débat.


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haydn
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 28, 2007 2:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant



Je vous signale tardivement le numéro de mars 2007 de Repères / Cahiers de danse, une revue fort sérieuse et à caractère plutôt universitaire.

Elle publie dans son numéro de mars un dossier consacré à Giselle. Les auteurs, Laetitia Doat et Marie Glon, ont demandé à Agnès Letestu, Laëtitia Pujol, Aurélie Dupont, Clairemarie Osta et Ghislaine Thesmar d'expliciter leur conception du rôle. Et cette fois, pas question de bijoux et fanfreluches...


Agnès Letestu :

Citation:
Depuis la création de Giselle, les corps se soont affinés, allongés ; la technique a évolué elle aussi, nous dansons différemment ; les mouvements sont plus libres, le dos plus redressé, les genoux plus tendus, les pieds plus cambrés, les jambes montent plus haut... En outre je n'ai pas le physique habituel : les Giselle sont généralement brunes... Il faut donc s'adapter. Par exemple, j'adorais Carla Fracci qui sortait de la tombe complètement droite, comme un papillon de sa chrysalide, mais on m'a fait comprendre que sur moi l'effet n'était pas le même : d'une part le film de Carla Fracci la fait apparaître de face, et l'effet est moins saisissant lorsqu'on est de trois-quarts, comme c'est le cas en scène ; d'autre part, je suis trop grande ; si je me tiens droite, on a l'impression que je provoque la reine des wilis!



Aurélie Dupont :

Citation:
[La ligne dominante du corps de Giselle réside dans l'arrondi des épaules.] Comme le sternum est baissé, l'expressivité se trouve dans la nuque, dans un port de tête, un port de bras. En général, dans le ballet classique, on travaille des pieds à la têtre, avec un travail très poussé sur les jambes, les cuisses, les fesses, parce que les mouvements sont saccadés ; les bras en revanche sont assez simples. Dans Giselle, surtout le second acte, ce travail est inversé. J'ai un travail énorme sur le haut, plus discret en bas - et il se limite aux pieds et aux chevilles : le tutu descend très bas, il est inutile de dépenser son énergie pour essayer d'avoir des positions parfaites qu'on ne verra pas...


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Jonquille



Inscrit le: 22 Avr 2005
Messages: 1882

MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 28, 2007 3:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Savez-vous où l'on peut se procurer cette revue ?


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haydn
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 28, 2007 3:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

En renvoyant le bon de commande, téléchargeable sur le site de la Biennale du Val de Marne (qui finance la chose), ICI

En librairie, ou en téléphonant : 01 46 86 17 61


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Jonquille



Inscrit le: 22 Avr 2005
Messages: 1882

MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 28, 2007 3:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Merci, Haydn. Vous ne vous êtes pas fatigué pour rien !


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Katharine Kanter



Inscrit le: 19 Jan 2004
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Localisation: Paris

MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 03, 2007 4:39 pm    Sujet du message: L'en-dehors dans le marbre Répondre en citant

L'en-dehors dans le marbre
(The Turnout, as it appears in Marble)


Forwarded by an amiable third party, this author has now had the opportunity to read, carefully, the article by S. Dancre and Ph. de Lustrac in the March 2007 issue of "Danser", entitled "L'en-dehors dans le marbre" (The Turnout, as it appears in Marble) and written to herald a major Praxiteles exhibition that has just opened this past March 23rd. at the Louvre.

Anything that calls for over five minutes' research in a dance publication today is so unusual an occurrence, that one can only applaud the aforesaid article, despite premises that are not entirely solid.

The authors' thesis, argued somewhat confusedly, is that the ancient Greeks "invented" the turnout. They further muddy the issue, by expressing uncertainty as to whether it were “invented” by the Greek sculptors, or by their soldiers and athletes, and write,

“(the Greeks) had noted that by widening the normal aperture of the feet, by rotating the leg outwards.... they could increase both the amplitude of leg movement, mobility, stability, and balance".

This, they say, was observed from life, and taken into Greek sculpture from whence it meandered, through Italy, into the ballet:

“Nowhere [save in classical Greek sculpture] could the Renascence artists have found a precedent [for the turned-out position] ... that position having been invented outright by Greek art.” (nulle part ailleurs les artistes de la Renaissance n’auraient pu trouver l’exemple (...) une complète invention de l’art grec.)

As it happens, neither in art nor in life did the Greeks "invent" the turnout.

As a conscious act, as a verb, the turnout is ancient, and probably dates from the period of the Vedic Hymns - six, seven or eight thousand years ago, we are not entirely sure.

How do we know this?

Bear with me.

The Greek language, like all European tongues save for the Finno-Ugaric, is actually a form, and in the case of ancient Greek, a very proximate form indeed, of Sanskrit, of which the Vedic Hymns are said to be the divine expression.

More so actually than prose, serious poetry is the basic form of language (the spoken language being closer to poetry than prose), and it rests upon meter, i.e. a standard of measurement (iambs, trochees, dactyls ...).

The modal forms of music that accompanied the Sanskritic hymns, and that underly Western tonal music, express, though more abstractly, such measurement, understood here as precise frequencies, and the lawful (including dissonance, corresponding to dissymetry in the plastic arts and dance) relations between those frequencies. A many-tiered notion, metrics also means the way time is divided, which in turn includes both length (quantity in poetry) and stress (emphasis).

There is poetry, there is music, and there is dancing.

Any culture with a science of metrics so evolved as that of the Vedic hymns, must have experimented with the turnout: the relationship between the three basic forms of art – poetry, music and dancing – being inextricable. In a culture where one of the three is so manifestly scientific, the other two will be so perforce. Even had we no tangible proof – and tangible proof we do have – of the turnout’s great antiquity, we could adduce it from that evidence.

On the Indian sub-continent, the earliest, major theoretical work on the dance as a theatrical art form is known as the Natya Shastra, believed on the Indian sub-continent to be divinely inspired. I am sorry to say that I have not read its 36 volumes, although I am acquainted with certain of its ideas. This work is, at the very least, 2500 years old, and the technical basis to which it refers, considerably older. The Natya Shastra antedates Praxiteles (active around 360 BC), by at least a century, and probably by two or three centuries.

To the authors of the Natya Shastra, the turnout was a known and established fundamental of the dance, as one sees from pre-Christian era Indian statuary of dancing Gods, demi-Gods and devotees, where the turnout is a more pronounced and central technical feature, than in the work of Praxiteles.

Just as we in Europe have never ceased to speak “Sanskrit”, as that manifests itself in modern European tongues, so the Indian dance never died out in Europe, but has remained, like a trace element, in trace form, glinting here and there amongst the so-called “popular” or “folkloric” dances both on the Continent and in the British Isles.

Now, S. Dancre and Ph. de Lustrac pursue their argument thus,

[at the time of the Italian Renascence] “dancers gradually, and quite empirically, acquired a vaster faculty for movement, by imitating as though passively, the turnout as shown by Greek statuary” (ce fut la simple imitation presque passive de l’en-dehors montré par les statues grecques [par les danseurs] qui leur permit l’acquisition progressive et tout empirique de capacités de mouvement plus étendues).

I’m sorry, but I really do not see this.

Counter-proof is very close to hand, at Munich in fact, through an example not Italian at all, nor even German, really, and that reveals a turnout so marked, in positions so nearly identical to those of European classical dancing, that it would immediately be recognised in any Academy today. Definitely not a “gradual” acquisition of turnout by “passive” imitation.

I refer to the group carved in wood, by one of the finest sculptors of the German Renascence, Erasmus Grasser. It is known as the “Morisken Taenzer”, and so priceless that the Munich Museum has devoted an entire room to house the ten small statues that remain of the original sixteen. The Group is nearly 600 years old!

In English, “Morisken” means Morisco (converted Spanish Muslims), and more loosely, Moorish, the Moors, the Moroccans, the North Africans – in fact, the exquisite dancing figures are probably strolling players, Jews and Muslims come up from Spain, who reflect a direct Indian dance-influence into Spain through the Silk Road.

Apart from the turnout, the most striking feature of the Moorish Figures, is the sweeping épaulement.

As it happens, the reason we turn out the leg from the hip is NOT to increase the amplitude of leg movement. Neither soldiers nor athletes (Greek examples given by the aforesaid authors) use, or need, turnout beyond the normal, physiological 30 degrees (la marche en épi de blé), and yet their amplitude of movement is phenomenal, look at the stride of a marathon runner.

The purpose of turning out is to increase the amplitude of upper-body movement, relative to the legs. It is THEATRICAL, and its sole purpose is expression. The turnout allows the dancer to create two entirely separate planes that are counter-posed, as the stability of the lower body becomes such, that the upper body is freed to act expressively.

Stand on the diagonal, feet parallel. Then sweep the torso into épaulement, backwards and forwards along the diagonal, without freezing or blocking the foot. The heel of both feet will straightaway be drawn into turn out! Épaulement and turn-out hold in a natural and necessary relation. Under the impact of Balanchine, much if not all current teaching of the classical academic dance has striven, unfortunately, to dissociate the two.

Épaulement corresponds to the term contrapposto in the Renascence plastic arts. Painting itself, can be seen as a branch of theatre – it is meant, like theatre, to be LOOKED AT. Though the en-face can on occasion be used to great effect, as can stark profile, plainly, a painting whose subjects stare flat-on (en face) conveys but a narrow range of Affects, as one gathers from the paucity of Cubism and similar schools.

Dynamis and morphè

Finally, one welcomes what is perhaps the most important issue raised – though again, confusedly - by S. Dancre and Ph. de Lustrac, in respect of the Greek terms dynamis and morphè.

Our authors write,

“alternant des masses musculaires et des membres les uns contractés et en action, les autres au repos, ils étaient parvenus à exprimer l’essence même du corps, son dynamisme (de dunamis, « force, puissance ») l’autre étant sa forme (morphè). (“... in alternating muscular groups and limbs, some contracted and in action, the others at rest, [the Greeks] had managed to express the very essence of the body, its dynamism (from the Greek, dynamis, force, power) and its form (Greek, morphè)”.

To be precise, the term “dynamis” in classical Greek, is used in contra-distinction to “energeia”.

Dynamis would correspond to the Renascence use, in Italian, of the word “virtù” (in the mind) and also, to “impetu” (in physics), while energeia, is the consuming of the power to work, that is unleashed by this “impetu”. Energeia may be a substance or process visible to the eye, while dynamis is a process invisible, or rather visible to the mind only, which is why dynamis, in New Testament Greek, is sometimes used to mean “unleashing a miracle”- appositely enough.

In the classical dance, we are dealing not with the application or injection of power or force, as such, into movement, but with the relationship between “virtù” and the forms. As is well known, most ballet dancers are slightly-built individuals, with a light bone structure, as the wear-and-tear on a heavy skeleton would be too great. How can so frail a structure cover the stage at one leap, unleash variations blinding in their virtuosity or create new thought-objects, as fresh, as vivid as the waves of the sea? It cannot be by the application of power, or force, because those frail bones would break and shatter at the mere touch of Dynamis, that manifests a Will greater than the physical, human body could normally bear. The Forms, the Morphè, that correspond to the Russian notion of plastique, are both the buffer for Dynamis, and the vehicle through which it is expressed, as one sees in the work of a truly great dancer such as Thibault. One form dissolves into the next, through releasing the opposition – that is épaulement, while the impetus to do so, is the Dynamis.

Now, as Roger Tully insists, Form is Function, while the entwining of the two, creates meaning.

What meaning may lie behind the forms?

Returning to Praxiteles, whose presence at the Louvre has touched off this whole debate, the material sculptures cannot be separated from the theological ideas that animate them. Praxiteles was active shortly after the time of Socrates. His work, from which all degradation, self-inflicted or otherwise, is absent, reflects the Homeric, and then Socratic notion, that the body is the temple of Man’s soul, and that this soul is something immortal. That Man’s reason is a still centre, lawful, ever-present, more efficient in its action than the many-headed madness raining down from Olympus.

Before the invention of moveable type, it took endless hundred years for an idea, no matter how great, to wend its way through the world. Thus, the impact of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ did not express itself fully as a shock-wave greater than anything known to recorded history, until the explosion of genius during the Italian Renascence.

Amongst the countless manifestations of that shock-wave, was a deep change in the Affects known to the dance.

Now, according to the Natya Shastra, the Affects (Rasa), are nine in number:

Sringar (love), Vira (heroism), Bibhista (disgust), Raudra (anger), Hasya (mirth), Bhayankara (terror), Karuna (pity), Adbhuta (wonder), Shantha (tranquility) and Vatsalya (parental affection).

The fundamental Affect in the Indian classical dance, is deemed to be Bliss (Ananda), which is, in essence, a state of ecstatic contemplation.

This cannot be described as identical in every respect, to the idea of sacrifice known to the Christians, amongst whom Beethoven was a leading figure two centuries ago. That sacrifice is, in art, expressed through the conscious paroxysm of effort, undertaken by the artist in order to express to one’s fellow man, the fullness, the beauty, the dignity of life.

In Beethoven’s day, and through his inspiration, experiments with transcendental difficulty were conducted in the main, at the Paris Opera, to the effect, that the Western classical dance finally freed itself from the Nine Rasas only. It left this earth. The dance of great elevation became a dance of great spiritual elevation. The thoughts, feelings and emotions that characterise it, as indefinite as they are infinite in variety, are real, and they are all orientated, they have a directionality, and they are a force. This force is not Bliss (Ananda), although it partakes of it. It is a benign, a benevolent power, the equivalent of a Platonic Form, shimmering, infrangible and eternal. The Affect behind all Affects in the Western classical dance is thus not Dualism, an unending struggle between unconquerable evil faced with obstinate good, but a declaration of the Good. The very technique of Western classical dancing allows it to bear the burden of this type of idea, an idea that Perrot has attempted to express in the Second Act of his ‘Giselle’.

A voyage on which this “little” matter of the turnout has launched us.

Note (1): In late March, Henri Charbonnier, Inspector of Dance, presented a paper on the history of the turnout at the Conservatoire du XIème arrondissement, that this writer was regrettably unable to attend. Reports would be welcomed.

Note (2) – Strongly turned-out dancing figures, in silver, have also been found in the Ukraine, dating from the Tenth or Eleventh Century – several hundred years before the Renascence.


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akhmatova



Inscrit le: 27 Mar 2007
Messages: 341

MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 03, 2007 10:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

"The Greek language, like all European tongues save for the Finno-Ugaric, is actually a form, and in the case of ancient Greek, a very proximate form indeed, of Sanskrit"

"More so actually than prose, serious poetry is the basic form of language (the spoken language being closer to poetry than prose)"

Unbelievable !!!!!
Is this a new theory on the origins and structure of language ?
Finno-Ugaric has/is no form ?
Should we call Chomsky or Hagege ?

And following linguistics, comes a post post modern historical survey of jews arriving to Germany.
I don't have a clue about the origins of "en dehors", but quite few on linguistics and history, to be disturbed by your affirmations and their well grounded vailidity.


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haydn
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 03, 2007 10:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Please keep cool!

I'm neither a specialist of linguistics, nor of en-dehors. But I guess there's some misunderstanding there. K. Kanter did'nt wrote that Finno-Ungaric tongues have no form, she just said that Finno-Ungaric tongues are not a form - e.i. are not derived from Sanskrit - , as other European tongues are.

As far as I known, Finno-Ungaric tongues as well as for instance the Basque language are not classified among indo-european languages, and their origins are still somewhat mysterious to linguists.

But please, remind all that this topic is about dance magazines issued in April, not about theories in linguistics or ethnology...


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Katharine Kanter



Inscrit le: 19 Jan 2004
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 03, 2007 10:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Finno-Ugaric - Finnish, Basque, Turk - and Ainu I think, in the Japanese islands

you've quite misunderstood what I meant - certainly never wrote that those languages have no form!


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akhmatova



Inscrit le: 27 Mar 2007
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 03, 2007 10:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

In this case, please accept my excuses. Though, I still read poetry is at the origines of language as well as jews arriving to germany from spain.
But as Haydn remainded us (my own self), it is not the place or time.


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haydn
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 03, 2007 11:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Poetry as an origin of language is certainly an interesting subject of discussion, and I guess, if it was admitted as a valid theory by 18th. century scholars, it has been considered as inaccurate by scientists since the end of 19th. century. However, one has to consider such theories when studying ballet history from the 17th to the early 19th., since dancers, choreographers, composers &c. had those theories in mind as they created their works.

Anyway, this is a subject that seems perhaps too far away from the main theme of this forum, dedicated to ballet....


Pardon à nos lecteurs non-anglophones de cette digression, qui visait à dissiper un malentendu entre K. Kanter et Akhmatova - spécialiste de poésie russe, je présume Wink - au sujet de l'origine des langues finno-ougriennes.


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